Inside Scoop: When Interviews Were Fun
Stella McCartney on George Harrison, sex, Tom Ford & more.
Where have all the fun interviews gone? That’s what I was asking myself as I was reading the cover story of Pop Spring/Summer ’02, its fourth issue, the Icons Issue.
On the cover is Madonna, sporting an edgy bottle-blonde chop and jagged side-swept bangs, toned to the high heavens, and entirely bare from the waist up, save for a thick rope crossed at the neck and obliques. She looks as if she’s about to crack the whip—literally—if only her hands weren’t full, each cupping the opposite breast.
Interestingly, the Q&A-style cover story in question does not star Madonna, but the brains behind the pants Madonna is wearing here: Stella McCartney.
I’ve always liked Stella McCartney—I’ve always lusted after her clingy silk Chloé dresses and have always respected her commitment to animal rights—but I’ve never been a Stella McCartney stan, so to speak. And yet you would've thought I was Stella’s stan-in-chief, the way I simply could not put down this interview.
It takes a savvy, incisive journalist to keep readers glued to an interview with a person they aren’t especially interested in—and that is precisely what Ashley Heath, Pop’s Editorial Director at the time and the interviewer for this story, did. Of course it helped that Heath and Stella were old pals, which he discloses in the intro. Their friendship clearly opened up topics of discussion that Stella wouldn’t have broached with other journalists, as well as those that every other journalist pussyfooted around at the time. And the result is delectably unvarnished. There are so many moments in the interview that make Stella squirm—and make you want to do that Homer Simpson backing-into-the-thickets meme. So many instances where Heath just goes there, needling her about her dad and her love life, probing her about George Harrison (who had recently passed), and asking her, in essence, what the hell she was thinking with that roundly deplored, objectively hideous debut collection for her namesake label, the Spring/Summer ‘02 collection.
Stella McCartney SS’02, you see, was no bueno. Some of the pieces looked like the sort of clothing handed out at bar mitzvahs circa 2002—after they had been taken home and shredded up by a slutty 13-year-old. I’m talking tees cropped to reveal under-boob and t-shirt minidresses with those harrowing asymmetric one-shoulder necklines. Except instead of bearing words like, “RACHEL * MAZEL TOV * 1.12.02,” they were emblazoned with stuff like “SLIPPERY WHEN WET,” “WHISTLE,” and “RASPBERRY RIPPLES” in garish, size-82 font.
In the interview, Heath rightfully takes Stella to task for this collection—the same collection that, funnily enough, appears throughout this story’s editorial. Shot by Mert Alas and Marcus Piggott and titled “Stella’s Icons,” the story features Madonna, Charlotte Rampling, Chrissie Hynde, and Sam Taylor-Wood—Stella’s friends and chosen icons—all wearing pieces from Stella’s much-derided debut.
Granted, stylist Katie Grand pulled the best pieces from the collection. And granted, Mert & Marcus worked wonders with their use of lighting and camera angles.
But still: styling Madonna and Charlotte Rampling in a collection that Cathy Horyn described in her New York Times review as fit for “a frat party where girls displayed their bosoms for a laugh”—a collection so lambasted it called Stella’s work at Chloé into question which, in turn, may have ignited an irrevocable rift between Stella and her former right-hand at Chloé, Phoebe Philo—was a risk.
Taking these sort of risks is nearly impossible today, what with the ironclad wall of publicists surrounding every public figure. But it wasn’t impossible back in 2001, when editorial freedom was still a thing.
And this is just the kind of move that made this era of Pop, and this story in particular, so great.
So with that, let’s dive in.
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I’ll set the scene: It’s 2001 and Ashley Heath, Pop’s Editorial Director, is in a black cab in London, on his way home, where he will be interviewing Stella McCartney for the cover story of Pop, issue 4. Heath reveals he doesn’t like doing interviews—he doesn’t even really do interviews—and he’s unprepared for this one. Luckily, for him and us, he and Stella are close. On his way home, with just 15 minutes left before the scheduled interview, he comes up with the format.
“It’s an idea that lets me ask Stella just the stuff I’m interested in — like gossip, really. And it means I’ll still have time to find and open a good bottle of red wine, because Stella McCartney knows about things like pricey red wine1. Plus, it would be nice to get her a bit drunk.
So it's the STELLA interview. Literally. We spell out her name in letters, where each letter is a topic that I can quiz her about. I reel off six topics before the taxi pulls up at the house…”
Stella arrives soon after, “just a little late,” carrying “a big, brilliant Tracey Emin picture in her arms. It’s a Christmas present to herself. Stella looks amazing and she’s happy and she’s going on to her office Christmas party later.”
Heath briefly explains to Stella the gist of the interview, saying, before adding a perfunctory, “There’s no going off the record, right?”
“S” is For…
Stella McCartney: So S is for sex, obviously?
Ashley Heath: No, S is for slogans, as in those cockerney things all over your first Stella collection.
…
SM: I just think that in the day in which we’re living, a slogan is very powerful thing. I think it’s a very direct, interesting way to actually communicate with real people. If you can have your own voice on an item of clothing, it’s actually interesting. You know, when I did that ‘About Bloody Time’ T-shirt when my Dad got that award, it worked great. It said something that should have been said but no one had the balls to say it so directly.
And ABOUT that collection…
Ashley Heath: Considering [your first show] got such a critical pasting, how did you feel about it the very minute before you sent it out…
Stella McCartney: Well, it was a much bigger deal because it was the first show under my own name. Also, I think as you get older you take more things seriously, don’t you? And I think the naivety about having my first collection, my first ever fashion show, I just didn’t know what I was letting myself in for. I was quite innocent. And I was scared.
AH: Were you upset with the reactions, the reviews in the papers and the fashion talk?
SM: Yes, of course I was upset. But the thing is, I didn’t think that I was ever going to win anyway. I think that it’s difficult because I think I’m sort of reaching this area where I’ve been doing well for so long now, and it’s time to get publicly taught a lesson I think by, sort of the world’s press. But yeah, I was upset.
“My show was the day after the planes went into Afghanistan…”
—Stella McCartney
AH: You think you were publicly taught a lesson by the press. But do you think the bad reviews were valid?
SM: Well, I actually didn’t read a lot of them. You know, I knew. You just do…it had hundreds of elements of being a delicate collection from a media point of view…It was pretty obvious it was going to go the way it went, before anyone even saw the collection, in my mind. It was the pretty season…all the magazines everything was hippy and pretty, pretty, pretty. And then my show was the day after the planes went into Afghanistan and so politically it was a very delicate time too. And everyone supposedly changed their collections around and I was just, like, you know what, I’m over the hippy trippy pretty things because everyone’s doing it.
…
AH: Ironically, you’d already done quite enough of that pretty, pretty thing.
SM: I’ve always done that thing and everyone was so, like, ‘This is Stella’s season.’ It was so obviously going to be my big pretty feminine moment and so I…chose to do something that I thought was a bit more modern…sort of pushing what I do. And…it was difficult, because the music was very hard, the models came out all hard and attitudey, it was early in the morning, it was the day after Afghanistan, and the way in which I presented it I think was a little harsh for everybody. I don’t think people even really looked at the clothes.
AH: If you redid the show now, what would you change?
SM: I wouldn’t change a thing.
AH: No? That’s stupid, Stella.
SM: OK, I mean, if I was to redo the show now, it would be interesting to style it in the pretty way, while keeping all the same clothes. I’d change the music, change the lighting and just put a couple of other pieces in that I hadn’t shown.
AH: Do you think it would have got a better response like that?
SM: I think it would have got a mediocre response. But I don’t think that’s better - it’s more exciting to get an openly bad response! You know, the fact that I’m a woman doesn’t always work to my advantage. It’s almost all women that are slating me after all.
On The Press and Fakery…
Ashley Heath: Did anyone come backstage after the show and say honestly, ‘I didn’t like it much’?
Stella McCartney: What do you think? No! They wouldn’t.
AH: But people did say to you, ‘Fantastic, well done’, and then go and slag the show, right?
SM: Yeah. Of course. And could I give a shit, you know, really? The thing I learnt most was that this is now all about me, Stella McCartney. It’s about what women think I am and what women want from me. And that’s the most interesting thing that I’m learning.
“Tom [Ford] thinks you’re sexy as hell, doesn’t he?” —Ashley Heath
On Tom Ford—And Their Potentially Salacious Relationship…
At the time, many viewed Tom Ford as Stella’s boss; he was the creative director of Gucci Group (now Kering), which had recently partnered with Stella to help her launch her namesake brand.
Ashley Heath: OK, T is for Tom Ford. Your boss? Your saviour? Your lover, even? These are the questions that every fashion victim wants answered.
Stella McCartney: Thank God I didn’t guess T right. How sad would I be?
AH: But Tom Ford, he’s your boss... right?
SM: No.
AH: Really? So what is he, then?
SM: He’s a friend.
AH: C’mon. ‘He’s a friend’...
SM: Well, you know, he’s gonna read this and, he’s gonna have an answer in his head... But as far as I know now, he, um, he’s really more... I look to him for advice now.
AH: Hmm...
SM: You’re making this difficult, you bastard. You know, the thing with Tom is, before, he was a prospective boss, when he asked me to do Gucci, and then he would have been a boss. And when that didn’t happen he then sort of came to me about the idea of them going into partnership with me and doing my own label with Gucci Group. And then, he was a bit of a boss because I was like, that would be great and, you know, let’s negotiate. But the minute the deal was signed, Tom became a friend because the deal was done. And Tom doesn’t need to be nice to me now because he has me and I don’t need to be nice to him now because I have them. So...
AH: Tom thinks you’re sexy as hell, doesn’t he?
SM: What do you think?
AH: Well, I don’t know exactly who my boss is, but if my boss thought I was sexy as hell, I think it might be strange to deal with.
SM: It’s not really strange, and I know you’re just trying to cause trouble. It’s only weird for me because I don’t think I’m hot as hell at all.
AH: Do you think Tom Ford is sexy as hell?
SM: Yes. He’s a Virgo too. We’re both Virgos.
AH: Hmm. What does that mean?
SM: Tom Ford is sexy as hell because he’s just smooth and actually a very clever man. And that’s sexy as hell in my book.
AH: Do you remember when you first met him, the very moment that you first set eyes on him?
SM: I do now. I didn’t for a while, but you sort of remind me of it and so now I do. It was at an American Vogue dinner. Some exhibition thing they had at Christie’s, I think. He knew me, or he knew of me. I wouldn’t have been at the dinner had he not, let’s face it.
AH: And what was said at that first meeting? Do you remember?
SM: I don’t know, you’re the one who goes skiing with him. You tell me. And don’t edit that out.
AH: The rule is everything is on the record here, apart from what I choose to cut out. Did he flirt with you, Stella?
SM: You’re very bossy and I love it. And you’re not allowed to edit that either.
AH: What were you wearing that night?
SM: I was wearing one of my suits. Even now he reminds me that I was wearing that suit with nothing on underneath. And my hair was scraped back and I had a pair of sling backs on.
AH: And what did you say to each other? How hard did you flirt?
SM: I said... er... nice to meet you! That’s all I remember.
As Stella mentions in the interview, when Tom Ford first approached her, he wanted her to take over his creative director role at Gucci. At the time, Tom Ford was also heading up Gucci Group, so he was in a position to make these appointments. Stella turned down the role because of Gucci’s reputation for working with furs and leathers, after which she and Ford made a deal to partner on her own namesake label—and thus Stella McCartney, the brand, was born. Stella reiterated all this in a 2012 New York Times profile on her written by Cathy Horyn, saying that Tom Ford told her to “come to my studio and look at everything. Maybe you’ll do it.” And then, to Horyn, “as if all those exotic skins and corduroy hamster fur were going to turn me on and make me change my entire ethic.” Cathy Horyn, however, heard a different story. She wrote:
But when I spoke to Ford, he said, ‘It was never a conversation about taking over Gucci. I think she might have interpreted that at a certain point.’ He said he was aware of previous statements she made in the press, but ‘I just never corrected her.’
‘Oh, he’s a lying, cheating…what?’ McCartney exclaimed, when I repeated his comment. ‘That’s the weirdest thing. Why would he take me into an office and show me every dead animal? Oops!’ She laughed.”
“I think you’ve got a big ego saying that to me because that’s quite sort of bullshitty thing to say.” —Stella McCartney
“E” Is For…
Stella McCartney: E stands for... no, not ecstasy - it’s for energy, it’s excitement. It’s Everton!
Ashley Heath: No, E is for ego, Stella. You’ve got a pretty big one, right?
SM: Oooh! Why do you say that? What a rude thing to say!
AH: If someone said that to me, I wouldn’t feel it was a particularly rude thing to say. We’re not talking ‘ego’ as in insult here.
SM: But bloody hell. I can’t believe E was for ego and that was from you. You can’t just throw that at someone and just expect some sort of normal response. I’d like to think that I don’t appear to have a big ego because I don’t think that’s a very appealing thing to have. I think you’ve got a big ego saying that to me because that’s quite sort of bullshitty thing to say.
AH: I thought you wanted a bit of an intellectual conversation. E could be for England instead if that makes you more comfortable. But ego doesn’t have to be a term of derision.
SM: Well in this day and age it conjures up images of somebody that’s full of himself and…that’s not me…I’m not trying to prove myself to anyone, I don’t even have to work because of my background. But I do have an ego to fulfill I guess... does that make sense?
“L” Is For…
Ashley Heath: You’ve got two Ls to do, and I was going to save loss until last, because the other L is for...
Stella McCartney: Liposuction!
AH: You had any?
SM: No! Anyway, L is for lust, right?
AH: Right.
SM: Woooh! My god, I got one right!
On Loss…
Stella McCartney: My mother had a great drive, especially for just doing good or just trying to do something good. I think that that is a good grounding…after my mum’s death - and seeing how the world reacted to that - it really put it into perspective. Because it really is a case of, don’t let them affect you because you’re just going to die one day and then they’re probably going to pretend they loved you…When you lose someone you love, you do start to think, well, life, you know…There’s no reason for it, but you have to deal with it, because it’s going to happen to everyone some day. But it’s the worst thing that can happen to you. Um, this is hard, because loss is the saddest thing in my life..I’ve found it’s very personal. It’s different for everyone…I haven’t really dealt with it enough to sit and talk really.
How did I find George [Harrison]? My relationship with him was... well, I was always a little kid and he was just George, you know, he was my dad’s mate and he was always a bit moody. —Stella McCartney
On George Harrison…
Ashley Heath: But loss seems really appropriate to talk about, given George Harrison’s passing last week. You knew him, right?
Stella McCartney: Yes, I mean George was like an uncle, you know? I felt…well, you know, it was horrible.
…
AH: Were you struck by the way that the world seemed to have been really moved by his death? I was in America last week, and there seemed to be this really deep, heartfelt respect and love for George Harrison suddenly coming up as if it had been buried or hidden for years.
SM: Well, maybe that’s a bit of a lesson for people in general. Maybe people should let him resonate when that person is still alive.
AH: How did you honestly find him in the main?
SM: He was down the corridor!
AH: No, seriously Stella. I’m interested.
SM: How did I find George? My relationship with him was... well, I was always a little kid and he was just George, you know, he was my dad’s mate and he was always a bit moody. I knew he was with The Beatles, but with me it’s difficult because he was just a guy I grew up with in the house. He was just George, and then he got older. But I knew that he was not well at all. Hopefully George is in a better place now.
And on Paul McCartney’s potentially controversial public response to George’s death…
Ashley Heath: Did you see your dad’s statement about George on the TV?
Stella McCartney: I didn’t, actually…What did he do?
AH: Well, Paul and Heather Mills went to the gate of the house together and made a statement...
SM: I didn’t know he’d done that. And he did it on camera? He did that?
AH: Look, you know I’m a really big fan of your dad’s work and that I’ve really liked him whenever we’ve met, but you can see where I’m heading, I guess. I’m not being provocative for the sake of it here, but, for me, it was strange that Paul, who’d known George since they were boys – they were the first Beatles to meet, and they had their ups and downs but they were the original two school friends – and yet Paul decided to make his statement alongside Heather Mills. Now, I don’t know Heather, but…
SM: Oh, I think each to their own.
AH: I didn’t ask you for a comment yet. Is that your comment?
SM: Each to their own, that’s my comment.
AH: Is there a sense in which you are now dealing with some sort of loss of your father?
SM: Oh, Ashley. You so can’t expect me to answer that.
AH: It’s the topic that the media is tip-toeing round at the moment. You know that.
SM: Look, I’m so not going to talk about this to the readers of POP. And no disrespect to them either. I’ll talk to you later about it.
AH: Right. I promise you I won’t publish anything…
SM: No, that’s fine. I said what I said.
…
I don’t really like to give people what they want all the time. It’s part of my protective mechanism and maybe that’s from my upbringing. I know you, and we’re sitting by a fireplace having a glass of wine. I find it slightly odd though that, as a person, I can do an interview and thousands of people will read it and they’ve never met me and they don’t know me…I don’t mind people knowing my reactions because I’m not offended by your questions. I’m interested in why I kind of don’t want to tell people, I suppose…
“What about my supposed dykeyness?” —Stella McCartney
(Second) “L” is For…
Ashley: …lust.
Stella McCartney: Yes!
AH: And you really, really love men, don’t you Stella?
SM: The way you just come out with these questions! I don’t believe you, Ashley.
AH: But you do love men. I know.
SM: But what about my supposed dykeyness?
AH: Have you ever made love with a woman?
SM: Oh Ashley, please.
AH: Have you ever made love with a woman?
SM: Shut up.
AH: Why? You just brought the subject up.
SM: Because I’m so not telling you that.
AH: And what about men? You really like men, right?
SM: Yeah.
AH: What is it about them, is it the way they smell, the way they look, the way they talk... Seriously, I don’t know, I’ve never been a woman!
SM: I just think they’re attractive, aren’t they? Cute, in a kind of sexy kind of way. I think that it’s very difficult to say that you love men now in this day and age, as a woman who has a job, as a woman who is confident, a woman who’s working in a man’s world... I don’t know, it’s a difficult one because I’d like to say that I like that they’re bigger than me, but it’s not that. Protective maybe, I like that men can protect you...
AH: Have you ever got off with a real weedy guy?
SM: Id say no.
AH: Have you slept with more than 30 men in your life?
SM: Oh fuck off, I’m so not telling you that either. I will say that I have not slept with a lot of men. I’m very selective as to who I sleep with so. It’s kind of a big one, sex, isn’t it?
“Oh fuck off Ashley, you are a really sad bastard and you read a lot of sad stuff.”
—Stella McCartney
“A” is For Her Boyfriend (Now Husband)
That is, Alasdhair Willis—the man who, among other things, helped put the brand Hunter on the map and co-founded Wallpaper* Magazine. He’s also co-founded Established & Sons, a sort of creative hub for British (initially), and now global, high-end design. Today, he holds the title of Chief Creative Officer of Adidas, but at the time of this interview, he was fast becoming known as Stella’s mans.
Ashley Heath: A is for Alasdhair, the name of your boyfriend. The man you get pictured with canoodling in celebrity magazines
Stella McCartney: Oh fuck off Ashley, you are a really sad bastard and you read a lot of sad stuff.
AH: I get it put on my desk, Stella. I can’t miss pictures of you snogging in public.
SM: You’re full of it, we weren’t even kissing. I’ve never seen a picture of me kissing a guy in public, ever. I will bet you a million pounds that there is no picture of me kissing Alasdhair.
AH: No, that’s right, he was looking at you in a doting manner while you chatted on your mobile.
SM: OK, I’ve seen a picture of me on the phone with a pint in my hand. But that’s not what you said.
AH: In those pictures he was looking at you adoringly, wouldn’t you say?
SM: However you read a look is up to you. But I’m not a person that comes out of a premiere holding hands, I’m just not. I just refuse. You know that. I’m not fucking. you know, I’m not Liz Hurley.
AH: What’s Liz Hurley done?
SM: I’m not being mean about Elizabeth Hurley. There are pictures of Elizabeth Hurley kissing her boyfriends at premieres - you know, fine. There are pictures of Nicole Kidman too. It just seems to me very Elizabeth Hurley thing to be that kind of celebrity.
AH: Alasdhair? The love of your life?
SM: Ha ha, you’re such a sad bastard.
AH: I’m asking the questions that I want to know the answers to. That’s all. Is this man the love of your life?
SM: Fuck off. ‘The love of my life’! You are a sad bastard. Look, you know him and he probably put you up to this.
AH: You’re ducking the question.
SM: You’re a sad bastard and the tape’s going off
Until next time! xo
Stella now makes bags and shoes out of a leather alternative called Vegea, which is made from the discarded fruits, stalks, skins, and pulp left over from grape harvests used to make wine.
Great article!!!